Andy Ihnatko

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey everyone, I'm Jason Howell, host of the Techsploder podcast.

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to let you know that I'm making some changes to the show that are going to take

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_03]: place immediately.

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_03]: For now, you can expect new episodes to arrive on a monthly basis and to be frank, I personally

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_03]: enjoy the conversations with my friends too much to just let the show go entirely

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_03]: but the weekly cadence has become too difficult for me, this one-man shop, to support

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_03]: entirely.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, my hope is for that to change in the future to get back to a weekly schedule but

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_03]: for right now I really have no choice.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I got to simplify, I hope you can understand.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_03]: So please stay subscribed, I promise once I have a new conversation to share, you will

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_03]: see it appear in your feeds automatically and thank you so much for your ongoing support

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_03]: and now on with the show.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're thinking about buying a piece of technology or upgrading what you've

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_01]: got now, unless it can solve a problem for you or create an opportunity for you, you don't

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: need it.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_03]: This is the Techsploder podcast, conversations with tech professionals about being human

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_03]: in a binary world.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Episode 21, Andy and Nautico.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Techsploders made possible by the financial support of our patrons like Joe Gorup.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_03]: If you like what you hear, head on over to patreon.com slash Jason Howell to

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_03]: support the show directly and thank you for making independent podcasting possible.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Hello and welcome to the Techsploder podcast.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm your host Jason Howell and I have the opportunity to each week sit down with my

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_03]: friends in the world of tech and talk about their kind of tech origin story and really

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_03]: find out how each of our stories in the realm of technology are both different

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_03]: and also the same at the same time.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Hopefully that makes sense.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Today's guest is Andy Nautico, renowned technology journalist, author, also podcaster

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_03]: who's been at the forefront of tech reporting for over three decades.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_03]: He's served as the Chicago Sun Times technology columnist for many years.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_03]: He was a Macworld columnist as well for more than two decades.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Currently Andy is a tech contributor for WGBH and PR and co-hosts the material

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_03]: podcast on the Relay FM network.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_03]: He's also a regular contributor to the Twit podcast network on shows like

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Mac Break Weekly and he's often a guest that can be found on the This Week in Tech

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_03]: podcast but we've got a lot to talk about with Andy.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Had a wonderful conversation that's coming right up.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Right now let's get into my conversation with Andy Nautico.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_03]: What's up Andy Nautico?

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_03]: It is so great to talk with you.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_01]: How are you doing man?

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Back at ya.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing fine.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It's good to see your face in streaming form as opposed to email form and audio form.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes indeed, keeping the content wheel turning.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_03]: That's the name of the game these days, which is something that you're very familiar with.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_03]: You keep yourself super busy on a weekly basis.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_03]: You know the kind of the hamster wheel momentum feeling with me with material

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_03]: and of course Mac Break Weekly and then we're talking pre-show of course

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_03]: the work that you do for NPR and then you're doing writing outside of that.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's your audio kind of content and what anything outside of that?

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean I do a lot of work for other people that aren't like

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you know I do some consulting work if it seems interesting.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I do some writing projects if they seem interesting.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Most of the writing that I do has been for myself.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It's having fun because believe it or not like the streaming income is enough

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_01]: that if I want to pursue like I haven't I'll put it this way.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I have ever since I left the SunTimes, I haven't found a venue for tech writing

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_01]: for me that was as fun as the SunTimes where it was literally

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_01]: here we can we're counting on you to provide an 800 to 1000 word column

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: twice a week.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: What you do with those 800 to 1000 words is perfectly up to you.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: If there's a problem we'll let you know.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It's nice that sometimes you have to pitch something or you have to like

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: it's hard to work as my dad said long, long time ago when I was considering

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: taking the last time I considered taking an actual like office job.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: He said son I don't know if you're even house broken for office work anymore.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: It's harder for me to work under like a structure anymore

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: because again so much further I've had that luxury no matter what I do of like

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: even for even when I do my my stuff for NPR it's like I'm on

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm an excitement on Thursday and on Wednesday afternoon

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I will give them like four or five topics and briefing papers on them.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: If they have if they have suggestions for a topic that they want to talk about

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_01]: they'll give it to me but it's not well we'll have a pitch meeting

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and we'll shape the show.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's once you get once you get used to certain luxuries

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: it's hard not to it's hard.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to go back to really I have to give you an outline first.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, yeah, indeed.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean to yeah to a certain degree once you've experienced just flying

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_03]: by this not by the seat of your pants.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I think what it is is at a certain point you're so experienced

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_03]: and so known to be good at what you do that people

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_03]: just kind of give you the leeway to do that and then to kind of wheel

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_03]: that back and have to put it into the confines of this is the room

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_03]: and we sit in the room and we all come up with this together.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_03]: That would be a hard thing to undo.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's actually that's part of my like that's been part of my

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: professional tactics like every time every time a new gig has started up

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_01]: it's always been I will spend the first month month and a half working

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: more I'll spend the first month month and a half earning their trust

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and then after that they kind of let me go once it's once you

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: but actually it's something I discovered a long, long time ago

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_01]: when I started doing stuff for for for TV where it's like

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I really I came to realize that a producer is on especially on TV,

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: especially on like national like TV news.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: They have got so much to worry about every day, every hour, every week.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you come to them where I will solve this three and a half

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: to five minutes for you, it will all be done.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I will write the I will I will brief like the on air hosts.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I will source all the material.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I will give you all the research and all the references.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: All you have to do is, you know, give it a look over and it will work.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Once I find that they're so relieved that I don't have to worry.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, you back that up by actually bringing the actually doing it.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But honestly, once they once they realize that this is five minutes,

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to worry about and that will say maybe we should ask that guy back.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we should have that guy on regularly.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_01]: It's nice to have five minutes of a three hour long program where all I have

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: to do is make sure that he hasn't died or suffered a disfiguring

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_01]: eye infection two days before before airtime.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it really is interesting.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, you know, I can only compare it to the kind of the the hamster wheel

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_03]: of sorts of the daily, you know, tech news thing, you know, doing tech news

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_03]: today and tech news weekly and stepping onto that hamster wheel,

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_03]: especially with a daily podcast, let alone TV, which is a whole other

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_03]: realm of pressure, but a daily podcast like that.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_03]: There are needs within that hour that you just have to figure out

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_03]: and fill on a regular daily basis.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_03]: That can be a bit of a grind.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm sure if someone came in and said, hey, you know what?

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I got 20 minutes of your podcast.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_03]: You don't even need to worry about it.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_03]: You can trust me.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And like you said, they they prove and they back that up with with results.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_03]: That's just an insane amount of pressure.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_03]: What what TV like I'm curious about this the stuff you were doing for TV.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Like how did that come about and what were you doing that was

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_03]: bringing you on to TV on a regular basis?

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I had I had the iPhone, the original iPhone to thank for that.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Because Apple.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: When they announced it, it if people were thinking about tech back then

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: who people are listening, it really became like the I don't know,

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_01]: the the magic lamp that everybody was really interested in.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: It was clearly something engaging and wonderful.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And as luck would have it, I was one of a handful of people

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_01]: that like after it was first announced, remember that the announcement

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: came in January, it wasn't going to be released until like June.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And like 20 minutes after the announcement, I was in a room backstage

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: holding a working as much as it was working at that time, a working sample.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I was one of a handful of people who could say

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: here's what it actually works, looks feels like here's how responsive it is.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what it is to open the to look at the web through a phone.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And so as a result for as a result, so a local local cable.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a local cable news channel, Nessan New England cable news that like,

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: ooh, we have there's somebody local that like has actually let's get them on.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And then yeah, you become you become the obvious target at that point.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. And I did well enough that they said,

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_01]: let's have this guy on regularly to talk about tech.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And then and then after that, like CBS CBS News later on,

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what the situation was, but it was a.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I think it was I think it was still the iPhone had me on to

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the CBS Morning, I forget what it's called, but the the CBS Morning Show

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that is has gone through four name chains.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It was basically the show that goes opposite to the today's show.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And so again, then so they had me on to talk about the iPhone.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And once again, it was there was an

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_01]: the last email ended with, hey, if you got any ideas for tech stories,

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: not liking to have another free trip to New York City.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I pitched them an idea.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: They said, great, let's do it.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Pitched them another day.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Great, that next to it.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And like I was alluding to before, if you deliver, then it's like,

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: hey, we got a slot open.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any ideas?

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously, obviously that's not where show up and will and tell us

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: what we're going to do.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But at least it was the same sort of thing where if I came up with an idea,

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_01]: it's just super, super fun to produce a show that way to figure out like,

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, I've got three and a half to five minutes of

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: airtime on national in this case in national news.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: How am I going to use it?

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: How am I going to take advantage of this?

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what can how can I be of service to the people who are going

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_01]: to be watching this and also take into consideration the fact that

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: it's only three and a half to five minutes.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You have you can't be you can't be like you can't be like

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to get into

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: an interesting twist to government policy regarding the regulation

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: of tax like that's not really very showy, is it?

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But but but again, it's a lot of fun.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And once again, it was nice to have a free trip to New York every month.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, having just come back from New York, actually, on a trip

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_03]: that for a conference at the DroidCon Convention in New York

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and they had a sponsor, they were able to fly me and everyone else

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_03]: on the Android Faithful podcast out there.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And just speaking from that, that experience, just like a couple of days ago.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's nice to get the opportunity to do that every once in a while.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And can I say I don't do that kind of travel.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Even even the hamster wheel is kind of fun.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like the NPR used to be every week.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And now it's like a couple of times a month.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: The it was the one fun thing that I kind of lost out on when it was every week

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: is that and this is this is another like analogy that's kind of stuck with me.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: The idea of like

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_01]: of like even the even the greatest professional baseball hitter of all time.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, Ted Williams, you know, best year he hit 400,

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: which meant that six times out of 10, like he was frustrated.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And just the I don't know whether I actually got this from like an article

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: about like a game, but the idea of Ted Williams striking out,

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: going back to the dugout, beating the hell out of the water cooler.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But then you got to get over because you got another at bat

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: like in about 45 minutes time.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. That's that's another thing that kind of gave me optimism

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that the more at bats you have, the less it matters that you

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_01]: you score on that particular one.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's fun to like like this on Thursday.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm I've got my lineup and putting it together.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of it is, wow, there's so many

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_01]: like the Department of Justice against Google is such an interesting thing.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01]: There is there's also again, ABC, all these policy stuff.

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk about some practical stuff too.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: When you're in when you have more at bats, you can say,

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_01]: actually, here's just a goofy thing I came across.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of like that.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to use a chunk.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's a nugget.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. And so yeah.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's so I think that part of getting along and getting by

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and maintaining your happiness and your sanity is knowing that

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: no matter what you're doing, there is an advantage to it.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a there's something particularly and uniquely enjoyable about it.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Find it, hold on to it.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy a treasure of that and don't think about, oh, God,

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I got to come up with something to do something next tomorrow.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess something to do the next day or gosh, I'm not sure I only got one

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: three and a half minutes a month.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm going to use this three to half minutes.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Now that what comes to mind for me with that is kind of something

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_03]: that, you know, in my current paradigm of what I'm doing, you know,

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_03]: have a YouTube channel, have some podcasts, have three podcasts.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Three podcasts alone is a lot of work.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a lot of work.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Let alone also supporting a YouTube channel and feeling like, OK, I got

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I got to be on that hamster wheel and produce content.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, there's got to be something original.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, from what you were saying and translating that over

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_03]: to what I'm doing right now, it's this constant question of like

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_03]: quantity versus quality and not that not that like I feel like, oh,

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I should just, you know, not produce something of quality.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not that it's just how much effort and like attention to detail

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_03]: is necessary for a single thing.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Versus like if I was to do, you know, put 100 percent of my effort

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_03]: into this one major thing versus putting like 70 percent of my effort

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_03]: into this thing and then moving on to the next thing.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And that reserve 30 percent goes over and, you know, like is it's hard

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_03]: to know the best way to do that when you're talking content.

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I imagine that's, you know, there's some similarities between

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_03]: video creation and podcasting and then also the content

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_03]: that you choose to write for all of these different places.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. But again, I have a lot of projects that have been going on for

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_01]: one project that's been going on.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not joking for 15, 16, 17 years and it's a personal project.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And but it makes me appreciate the problem of deadlines where

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: it's never going to be done, but it is unfortunately do.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So get it done, release it when people are expecting it

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: when you've told people you're going to release it.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, enough.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. It's it's so I mean, it's so easy to get precious about these things.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Oh, for sure.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You got you have to you can't say, you know, each sentence has to be

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: an unallied gem of perfect truth, beauty and wisdom.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_01]: A heartbreaking work of staggering genius like, OK, dude,

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: you're you're talking about the new camera button on the iPhone.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Yeah. Let's make it readable.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's make it fun.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's make sure you represent your point of view.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But the Pulitzer Committee is not hanging on your everywhere here.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Just just publish it at a time when it's actually useful to people.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, it really is a balance point because you can go like

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_03]: because I can appreciate the desire or the want to be that,

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, have that much attention to detail.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I know for myself, I just don't have the patience for it.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes I don't have the patience.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I've got a video on a timeline and I just like I hit a point

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_03]: where I'm like, I just really just want to publish this.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, because like I could continue going on every single little

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_03]: detail for hours and days.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And I just I hit my my kind of limit as far as having the patience

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_03]: to kind of continue going.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And so sometimes it's just like, all right, good enough. Go.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I got to tell you, I have to admire you for getting into video that way

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: because I've tried so hard to get into to get into video.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And I just just as you say, I get it's I have fun plotting out

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: what I'm going to say.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I have fun recording it and then it's like, OK, but now you got to edit this.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: There's so much technical stuff and making this whole work.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And I never figured out like a workflow to make it efficiently.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the stuff that I should be sweating over?

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the stuff where, OK, it's easy.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It's you can just be simple and direct with this.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, and meanwhile,

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: you and I are at a disadvantage because

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: when you look at the videos that are being made by a younger generation

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: that maybe didn't grow up with camera phones, but they did grow up

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: with iMovie. They did grow up learning in high school

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: about non-liddy or editing.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Like there's one of my favorite YouTubers is a creator by the name of Rachel Maxie.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And she is such a brilliant storyteller

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and it does turn out that she did go to film school,

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_01]: but she talks about like in high school again, being on the school iMac

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: editing videos. And that's that's the sort of thing that I'm talking about

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: where just as I you and I are probably the first generations

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: that grew up with word processors where it frustrated

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: people who are just like five or ten years older than us

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: understanding how word processor works, whereas we learned how to write

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: with the idea of just put a sentence and a paragraph out there if it stinks.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Highlight, delete or just backspace a lot because we're talking about Apple

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: writer too, probably. But you know, and so I create

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it created a lot of people who write a lot better than previous

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: generations. And so it's I really envy those people

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: who have that sort of green thumb for video storytelling because I certainly

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: don't have it and I wasn't able to cultivate it.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know what?

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of things are hard when you start to get into it.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_01]: A good sign that you're onto something that is kind of

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: nourishing and fulfilling for you creatively is when your reaction is,

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: wow, that really sucked.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't wait to do it again as opposed to how that really sucked.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Why am I doing this?

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, oh, totally.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that kind of existential dread versus curiosity almost.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. And I mean, I will admit from my own personal perspective,

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_03]: there are days where I have both.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_03]: There are days where I wake up and I have that dread and then days

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_03]: where I wake up and I'm like, no, man, let's go.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_03]: One thing that really came to mind for me right there

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_03]: in what you were saying is watching my daughters and them with technology

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_03]: and specifically with social media networks like TikTok,

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, very visual, video driven networks that are built around

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_03]: like foundationally built with tools for editing.

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. And mind you, they aren't like Adobe Premiere tools,

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_03]: but the concepts, the whole thought process is the same.

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just with a different, maybe a more simplified tool set

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_03]: or something that's just easier on a smaller screen,

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, meant for point tapping with your finger and stuff.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And so what I realize, especially in my older daughter,

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_03]: who does have access to TikTok

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_03]: and she kind of creates her own videos and everything is just like you said,

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_03]: how naturally that form comes to them.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. And meanwhile, this is a skill that you and I, you know,

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_03]: we had to really educate ourselves around now.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just kind of part of, you know, the the oxygen of an iPhone

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_03]: or an Android devices. Oh, yeah.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_03]: That app's on there.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_03]: They have an interest in that app.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Therefore, they're going to learn pretty quickly how to edit for that type of video.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, stuff she comes up with.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, oh, my goodness, you know this now? Yeah. This crazy.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It's such a telltale.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: We can see you can tell it's fading out a little bit now.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But like especially five or maybe 10 years ago on YouTube,

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_01]: you could really tell that cutoff between generations because

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: there were younger creators who were understood the form perfectly.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they're the ones who are like, oh, wow,

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I can make my own TV show and release it on YouTube.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And like I'm thinking of one person in particular.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I won't I won't name them because it's not about like the person.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's like, wow, you put together like this.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_01]: He was he was famous enough as a blogger

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: to put some money into it or find a sponsor or whatever.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And he built a set and he built this big intro

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and he had these recurring segments and like not necessarily special effects.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's like you are trying to make a TV show TV show.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Whereas all you needed to do was put a certain amount of money

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: into making sure your microphone is good, your lighting is good, your camera is good.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And just start talking.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't need the 30 second.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_01]: There's another one that I'm differently who like

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: they produce good videos.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, they're they're generation Xers.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But like the first 30 seconds is hi, me and my I am me and my wife

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_01]: have a have a collectibles business and we travel the entire country

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_01]: looking for collectibles.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Now you can share it like I I've seen one of your videos before.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I know what it is.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to spend 30 seconds like this.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You can just jump in and go.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, there's so much that I love seeing how

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: unexpectedly technology can shine a light on

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_01]: how different generations progress, how what their attitudes are,

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_01]: what their upbringing was like, what their environment was like,

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: what their priorities are like, not by them making a video about it,

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: but by here's how you produce.

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's how they produce a video.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really fascinating.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, it really is.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_03]: You have always struck me as a highly creative person.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And like it seems to me and correct me if I'm wrong,

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_03]: but it seems to me that creativity is kind of core to who you are.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you're a writer, you're a podcaster,

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_03]: an assumption that I've made about you

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and I don't know if this is correct or not.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So tell me if I'm if I'm far off off field here,

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_03]: were you an actor at some point?

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_03]: You have a very kind of theatrical presence about no, no, no.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_03]: That's an assumption that I've made

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_03]: and I apologize if that's an assumption that you don't like hearing.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_03]: But there's something about like your your presence

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_03]: and your delivery and everything that I've just always assumed

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_03]: like I bet you he was I bet you he was into acting when he was younger.

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I don't know.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what it is about you.

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_03]: But I think I think it's a very unique kind of thing

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_03]: that you bring to the table.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_03]: The content that you create.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And when you're on the podcast,

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_03]: you're just a very engaging person.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_03]: You know how you know how to present yourself

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_03]: in a way that is captivating.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I just always kind of assumed like you OK,

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_03]: you've had training in this to some degree,

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's just who you are.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's that's very flattering.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And I thank you for saying it.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_01]: That's it.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: If it comes from anything, it's.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of like not wanting to waste people's time and hope.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And well, actually,

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: mostly it's because I'm just having a I'm trying to have a good time.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: If I'm having a miserable time, then that's there's something wrong

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and need to back off and either try something else or try something again.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm so blessed that I've never had a job that I've really hated.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I've had lots of jobs in this

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_01]: in being a tech journalist that I didn't like certain parts of it.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But I've always had the power to OK,

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_01]: so do we have to keep doing that or can we jettison that?

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So otherwise it's so easy to burn out.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_01]: They're getting back to YouTube.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I see some people have these channels that are getting

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: like about maybe a thousand subscribers and maybe 50, 60, 70 views.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And because I'll see it linked from someplace else on Reddit

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'll check out their other videos.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And they've been doing this like for for like two or three years.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_01]: They've got like 300 videos.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And the most views they've ever received is like 700 800 800 views.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And I have again so much admiration for that because

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: they're not doing it for external validation.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: They're not doing it for the money.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_01]: They're obviously doing this because they either they're they're

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: clinically obsessed and the quality of their work is too good

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: for just clinical obsession or they just simply enjoy it.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And the work is Vita S.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Laborham, the work is what's all about the work is worth it.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: What makes it worth while?

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, it is interesting to see that.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of people on YouTube that absolutely that they're doing it purely

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_03]: because they love it.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the same, you know, the same could be said about podcast.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, you and I both have a long history in podcast.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_03]: But there's a lot of people that get into podcast

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_03]: and they have the assumption that like if I start a podcast,

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to start making money.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think and which is increasingly more and more difficult to do nowadays.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_03]: It's all you know, it's kind of gotten to the point

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_03]: to where if you were established then, then you're doing OK now.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Starting from square one right now, you've got a real

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, tall hill to climb to get there.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_03]: But often the advice there is, you know, don't start a podcast

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_03]: because you want to make money.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Start a podcast because it's about something you enjoy,

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_03]: something that you love, that you can talk passionate about passionately about

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_03]: on a regular recurring basis every single week for years and years.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And eventually, potentially that passion connects with people who share that passion.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, maybe that turns into a business somewhere down the line.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's why I don't say.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't say it gets me concerned, but so at the YouTube creator,

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it was a creator con couple of weeks ago in New York City,

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_01]: but they had YouTube had an event.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and they announced a whole bunch of AI tools that they're putting into

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: like the YouTube like Creator Hub or whatever.

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And one of them was if it was the they enhanced the brainstorming tool

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01]: with AI so that they so the and the pitch to the creators was, hey,

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: if you don't have an idea for for a video, use the brainstorming tool

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and it will help you like develop ideas, create an outline.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And as always, when Google talks about their creative AI tools,

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_01]: no matter who it's for, it's like, no, it helps you brainstorm,

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_01]: gives you a launching pad, gives you Congress starts the conversation

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_01]: to trigger things in your head.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And I appreciate that.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I do think that they believe that their fundamental idea of AI

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_01]: assistive, excuse me, creative AI is not to do your homework for you,

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: but as a collaborative effect with with with a human being.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But it really did seem as though it would be very easy for someone who

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: read an article about, you know, Mr. Beast or whoever it is,

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: the latest person who like is making eight million dollars a month

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: off of YouTube videos.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I'm going to start a YouTube channel too.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I have nothing I want to talk about.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I have not I'm not excited about doing this,

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: but I've been told that one can make money off of this.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're using this algorithm, which I saw,

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it was in any of the press materials

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: or the inventory materials, but I think it was something

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: that was said on stage that part of what the A.I. is doing

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: is not just saying, oh, well, gosh, you're a arts and crafts

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: blogger of autumn is Halloween is coming up.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: How about decorative pumpkins or decorative schools?

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot. Some of the the A.I. is saying, well, I can see that

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_01]: this topic is trending or these videos on these topics

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: are getting a lot of views.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: How about a topic on this?

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you get that done the next 48 hours,

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that's the sort of stuff that, yeah, that's that's a really boring

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you're not going to get a great video unless unless you are

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: one of these Dick Clark type of people who can just or

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01]: who can just be like in for fame, enthusiasm about

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01]: damn near anything and I've never been again.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We're we're Generation X.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't we don't we can't even have genuine enthusiasm about it.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, what is enthusiasm?

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't even know. It's lame.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what enthusiasm is just lame.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Whatever enthusiasm left me out of the equation.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Lathusiasm doesn't care about me.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Therefore, I don't care about it.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's that's so interesting.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_03]: So I've used some of the A.I.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_03]: tools to kind of understand, you know, for four creators,

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_03]: like there's this one tool called vid IQ and and, you know,

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_03]: of course, it has all these these tools within there to come up with

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_03]: ideas like you're talking about or to title your content.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And it always cracks me up because when these tools,

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_03]: like if I if I've created a video about the

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, that my Pixel nine review, let's say, and I run it through this tool,

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_03]: it always wants to come back with, you know, you won't believe the blah,

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_03]: blah, blah, about the Pixel nine or Pixel nine exposed colon.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like all of these grand like proclamations about like scandal

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_03]: or, you know, that thing you'll you won't find in something else.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's where I'm like, man, is there a generational difference

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_03]: where I'm like, I can't bring myself to do that?

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I even tried it once and it felt weird.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I ended up changing the title because it just didn't work for me.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_03]: But maybe that works for an algorithm.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe that's what you actually need to do.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And I just don't know that I could bring myself to do it.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's you know, but it's fine, too.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the fact that it gives you stuff that you reject, at least at

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_01]: proj, well, I don't want it to be like that.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_01]: What I what I like.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're also you're also pointing out one of the one of the things that I really

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really, really using generative AI a lot for which is because the worst

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_01]: for me, the hardest thing to produce is a title of an article.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad that for 20 years of the Sun Times,

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have to come up with this with an article title ever.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, I would make I might give a few suggestions.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But honestly, there are times where like I had things so

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_01]: if things were flowing so well in my head,

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: it took me less than an hour to write it.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But then if you if you asked me to have to come up with the title,

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that would be a half hour in and of itself.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But the ability to simply say,

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_01]: go into Gemini or go into chat, GPT and say, here's an article.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Give me 10 proposed

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_01]: headlines titles for it as a blog post.

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, maybe one will be run out of the money.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it'll be OK, I can see where that is the kind of that gives me a

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_03]: launchpad for an idea to tweak it or whatever.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And there are and there also you have to admit that there are.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's important not to undermine inadvertently your own efforts.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_01]: There's so many.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: YouTube videos, blog posts, whatever, that are titled like some thoughts

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: about the about the iPhone about the new iPhone.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like that doesn't tell me anything.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It's no unless unless I know absolutely who you are,

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_01]: unless I'm already like a big fan of your work as opposed to.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, you want to shy away, you definitely want to shy away from you.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Believe what I found out about it's like I'm not I'm not sure that this new

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_01]: iPhone.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not I'm not sure this new button is a good idea,

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_01]: which is basically if that's one of the big things in your in your in your

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: blog post, great, put it out there.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It's representing at least it gives people like something to hang on to.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, personally, something unique.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't be a primadonna.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, that's that's very true.

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I think one of the challenges that I've that I've had is I can create a thing.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, maybe this is similar with writing along the lines of what you were

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_03]: just talking about with the title.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I can create a thing and I can know how I feel about the thing

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_03]: that that video was about.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_03]: But pulling out that single that singular nugget from it

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_03]: that could be kind of like the the appealing or interesting defining,

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, promotable thing from it is really hard for me.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And that that is one of those things that, you know, a second a second set

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_03]: of eyes or an AI or something along those lines can at least start to

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_03]: start to kind of crack you out of your kind of general malaise at that point.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, because because same thing, you're talking about a half

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_03]: an hour titling things.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I've totally been there where I'm just like, you know, again, going back

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_03]: to my impatience level, it's like, I just want to get this out the door.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Like why am I spending a half an hour looking at this title, wondering

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_03]: which is the right one to go with?

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, why don't I just like pick one, put it up?

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And if in two hours nothing's happening, change it or what?

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I don't know until I know.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's that's it.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But isn't that always like super, super fun?

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: There are so many times where like my usual my usual route

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_01]: through like the news, the daily news is like, I'll be in bed and

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just be scrolling through like RSS feeds and I'll be flagging

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_01]: things for me to read later on.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you come back to it like three hours later and the

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: title is completely different.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Or it's like they decide that and I know that there are

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: algorithms for some of the some of the bigger CMSs will do

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: things like when you publish, it will publish it with five

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_01]: different titles.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And then like a half hour later, whichever one gets the most

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_01]: clicks becomes like the canonical title for the entire thing.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And then or then you look into the URL and you find that, oh,

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_01]: the URL said something different, but they're not going

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: to change the URL.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I mean, it's it's not it's not cheating.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not misleading.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But once again, it's like once you have something written

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and finalized, why wouldn't you want to use whatever

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: knowledge exists to help other people find it and read it?

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Short of misrepresenting yourself short of like putting

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_01]: one of those thumbnails of like,

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh God, yes, I know.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I know.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Although I had a conversation with Renee Richie.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I can't remember a couple of years ago and one of his

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_03]: points to me was like, you know, it feels weird.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_03]: It feels, you know, your ego definitely gets involved

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_03]: to do those types of thumbnails.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_03]: But at the end of the day, he's like, Jason, you

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_03]: just got to get over yourself because you know what?

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_03]: It works.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_03]: But like, yeah.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But and it's OK because they're not YouTube isn't

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_01]: demanding that you do this.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_01]: If you don't want if you don't want to do it, you don't have to do it.

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm I just I just see it as hacky.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, there are there are more than once I have unsubscribed

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: from a channel like we all have these channels that are kind of

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: on the bubble where we don't watch every video.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But occasionally they come up with one that's really interesting

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and you'll watch.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Some guy again went to one of these one of these panels or whatever

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and decided not just to go to but also I'm going to Photoshop big

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_01]: bulgy eyes and like I just hated so much seeing those thumbnails

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_01]: in my feed that I unsubscribed just so that I would not have

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_01]: to ever see them again.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, fair.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And I totally get it.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I totally get it.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't think you're alone either.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Need to take quick break.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And then when we come back, let's talk a little bit about like,

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, kind of the the the starting of your tech fascination.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Go go back a little to a to a younger Andy and I go that's

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_03]: going up here in a second.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_03]: All right.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_03]: So a big part of why I enjoy doing this is because I get to learn.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, more about you on a professional level, the guess that I have on,

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_03]: but also kind of like where it all began because I think at

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_03]: the end of the day at the core of all of us who work in tech,

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_03]: the way we do, we're passionate about it.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_03]: That passion began in different ways,

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_03]: but kind of the same ways too.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And so those stories are always very fascinating to me.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Is there like is there like an early tech memory that you have

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_03]: from your childhood or sometime earlier where I don't know,

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_03]: where you realized in that moment that you were a passionate

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_03]: technology fanatic? Or is that I mean, maybe it's something

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_03]: that came later.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it's something that didn't didn't surface for you when

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_03]: you were a kid. But does anything come to mind there?

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Not a single moment, but I think one of the unpredictable

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_01]: effects of having a computer inside the house is that

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I think my parents bought one for the house thinking that

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_01]: because we had sort of a large family.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we great resource for all the kids when they were

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_01]: learning and doing stuff.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know why particularly this happened,

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_01]: but it really was on the same level of my dad's typewriter

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_01]: from college was a play thing for everybody.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I used to play with a typewriter.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_01]: We, of course, had crayons and pencils and paper and we would

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_01]: draw and that would be a creative thing.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And the computer was exactly another one of those things.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It was kind of like it was an Apple II plus.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the one of the things that I

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_01]: one of the things that again, Gen Xers have with their

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_01]: with their childhood computers that today's generation doesn't have

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_01]: is that the whole thing was the whole damn thing was completely

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: open that the manuals even had like a dump of the of the

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_01]: source code for the ROMs.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Everything you took the lid off of it.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: There is every integrated circuit socketed so you could

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_01]: remove them and replace them.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a black box for investigation as a puzzle to

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_01]: figure out and then learning how to program in basic and then

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_01]: assembly language.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And just the ongoing thing if I want to create, I wasn't I

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_01]: wasn't thinking on this level, but gee, I want to I want to

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_01]: create this or gee, I've seen games do this.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_01]: How does a game like actually put a thing on the screen that

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't look like a character?

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't look like a blob like that.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you learn more about it and becomes an

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_01]: outlet for creativity.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's never technology has never been a tool.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It's never been an opposing force for creativity.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_01]: It's been just another way to express whatever it is inside

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_01]: your head, even if the thing that's inside your head is

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_01]: something very very nerdy and very geeky like like an assembly

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_01]: language program.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And it doesn't it doesn't hurt that at school there.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_01]: They're the schools are trying to justify like, OK, we

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_01]: bought these computers.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope people are using them.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_01]: This is before and then the and in the early days, like

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_01]: teachers had not the curriculum that involved computers

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_01]: was learning how to program and basic if that.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And so if you were one of these kids who like like to play

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_01]: with these things, they would be they would give you

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_01]: like a very, very long leash on which to play on.

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciated that as well.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it was always just I want to imagine there

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_01]: there's something I can to this day.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_01]: This is something that I that I is one of my maxims

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: that always comes up usually when there's like a new

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_01]: thousand dollar phone out there that if you're thinking

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_01]: about buying a piece of technology or upgrading, which

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: you've got now, unless it can solve a problem for you

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_01]: or create an opportunity for you, you don't need it.

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what great technology does.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it solves a problem, meaning that I've got all

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_01]: these like in my case, large language models are

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_01]: solving a problem for me where there are some

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_01]: weeks where there's so much law happening inside

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_01]: inside tech news where I've got 500 pages of

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: court filings and PDFs that I need to get through.

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I need to get through them in three days because

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: that's when like the next show is on or when I'm on

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_01]: NPR and the ability to get through all of them

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_01]: to not not do my homework for me, but at least

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_01]: summarize this for me.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, well, that's that part is interesting.

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Where do I find that?

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_01]: What page? And that solves a problem for me.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's the point in the right direction.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Then there's a technology that creates

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_01]: opportunities for you and some of them.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're not just talking about professional

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_01]: opportunities. We're talking about.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking earlier about about editing video.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_01]: The the idea that editing a movie in the old days,

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_01]: like in the 70s before I movie, before non-linear editing,

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_01]: there was such a high bar of entry where you needed

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_01]: a whole raft of technical skills of here's how

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01]: you physically cut film together.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's how you sync sound.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's the way you need to record the sound

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_01]: so that it will sync up later on.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's the the technical barrier.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the the money barrier of entry,

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_01]: whereas now that you can just today,

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you can just shoot something on your phone,

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_01]: not even have it leave your phone,

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_01]: not even install another piece of software

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and cut together just by instinct,

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_01]: just by exploration, just by playing with the medium

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_01]: of really good storytelling video.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That's creating an opportunity.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's maybe where all that comes from

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_01]: because this that Apple to plus,

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_01]: it wasn't a homework aid.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It was fun being the probably the only kid

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_01]: who had a word processor,

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_01]: but it was there because actually even then

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I probably would not have had so much fun as a writer.

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_01]: If when I was a kid, it was no longer

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_01]: it was so easy to play with words, so easy to edit things.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So it is just I'll just type it out and see what happens

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and then change it later on if I want to.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's that's probably where it comes from.

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, I mean, that that seems to explain

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_03]: your kind of interest in tech.

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_03]: It also seems to explain kind of what you went on to do.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Writing, writing with computers is a large part

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_03]: of what you've done over the years.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's that's a direct correlation.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I went to I studied computer science in college.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that I was going to be a programmer

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: who wrote on the side and turned out to be exactly the opposite.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_03]: See, I took I had a fascination in the the Commodore 64

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_03]: when I was a kid, that was like my big kind of pinnacle computer.

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_03]: When I finally got to college, I took computer science

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_03]: and I was awful at it.

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, while I thought I was going to be great

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_03]: because I love computers, but it turns out

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_03]: there's a lot more to it than than just that.

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm a great user of technology,

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_03]: but programmer maybe not so much skills there

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_03]: that didn't come naturally to me, I guess.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_03]: You let's see here.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_03]: So when it comes to kind of the technology

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_03]: that you were using back then, the Apple to would you say

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_03]: or the Apple to plus sorry, would you say that that was

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of the foundation for your interest in Apple products?

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I'd like as a whole because I mean, you you've spent

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_03]: a lot of your technology of your tech journalism career

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_03]: writing for publications like Mac World.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_03]: You were with backworld for quite a while

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_03]: and and through the 90s, right?

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_03]: You were you were writing for Mac World through the 90s,

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_03]: which is a really interesting pre iPhone era

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_03]: to kind of see a lot of change with the company.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Is that kind of where that fascination or that interest

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_03]: came from your early exposure?

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe. And part of it is that like even in the pre Internet ages,

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_01]: the legend of Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs,

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, you know, to do nerds in a garage

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_01]: who just playing with technology at a and going into a computer club

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and sharing what they what they know and then hand assembling these

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_01]: computers. Yeah.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's knowing that when you are like manipulating that ROM code

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that you've that I found in the in the in the owner's manual

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_01]: that I'm actually working with the sort with the code that Steve Wozniak

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_01]: himself created, knowing about oh, this is a kid called Chris Espinoza

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_01]: who like his about was about my age when he joined Apple

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and started writing manuals and oh my goodness.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_01]: That's I mean, that's certainly as a as a as a nerd as a teenage

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_01]: nerd to know that, OK, nerds can make good nerds.

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You can have epic epic lyric poetry written Ulysses Homer

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Hercules and Steve Wozniak.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think the.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And then but a big part of it, I think was the Macintosh

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_01]: because I still remember my first interaction with the Macintosh

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and thus the hairs just standing in back of my neck of seeing.

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God, the pixels, they're square like, oh, my God.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_01]: That's like they're sharp and they're square.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I've never seen.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I know it's like looking it's like looking at someone in real life.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like it was a transformative experience and for a long time,

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Apple products were giving me like that sort of thing regularly.

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And also it helps being like a snotty teenager than a snotty

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_01]: like young adults saying windows and never do wind.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God, Microsoft.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And fortunately, most of us grow out of that eventually,

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_01]: which leads you into a much larger and much, much more balanced world.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I mean, it's it's it's nice to Apple had.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Apple had sort of a, I don't know what you call it,

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_01]: like a halo around it that for sure that the fact that they.

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Came about as a response to IBM

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_01]: as a response to like the big and digital

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and the other mini computers that are out there.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_01]: The idea of like hippies who are saying, well, everybody should have a computer.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_01]: This shouldn't be a centralized thing that's controlled by the establishment.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And it sounds like I'm making fun of that.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's almost literally what a lot of the conversations

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_01]: at Homebrew Computer Club were about.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, we have these 8080 ICs.

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_01]: We have these 60 new 6502 ICs.

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_01]: That means that we can actually build a computer that you own and you control.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to timeshare.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to beg an insurance company or university or somebody else

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_01]: for time on their computer.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not if people are going to be free, they should own their own tools.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_01]: They shouldn't have to lease tools from the company store.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's that also figures well, of course, we're also Generation X.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So we were also first. Oh my God, stupid hippies.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Talk talk about how the internet should have

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_01]: there should be no privacy on the internet because information wants to be free.

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm happy you brought up the internet

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_03]: because this is another thing that I love to kind of talk about a little bit is,

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, kind of we've been around to see the the dawning of the the internet

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_03]: and the way that we, you know, everyone uses it nowadays.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_03]: We were there in the mid 90s when when it became a new thing

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_03]: and that suddenly we had access to and everything.

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm just kind of curious to know, like, are there any

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_03]: is there is there a moment when you first use the internet where, you know,

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_03]: and maybe it's maybe it's a particular part of the internet or a particular

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_03]: technology, but something that that stands out is like the moment where you're like,

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_03]: oh my goodness, this this really changes everything.

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Were you actually working at Mac World when the internet

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of revolution began, let's say?

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_01]: My I started off at Mac user when I was like 19.

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I was never on staff.

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I was always feeling so that start that was 1989.

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember that I remember that specifically because I when I

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_01]: got must have been an email.

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, we like that to that article that you wrote for us.

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to be a columnist?

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I thought, well, I have I'm glad this happened in 1989, because if

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_01]: like they they're on to me and like they drop me in three or four

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_01]: as long as I can hold on for three or four months, I can put on the resume.

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Mac user columnist 1989 to 1990.

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And they'll think it was two years and cross the decade as opposed to just

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_01]: like three or four months.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_03]: That's smart, though.

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_03]: That's really smart.

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I had hoped for the best expect the worst.

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Totally.

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, so that goes back a that goes back a very long way.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not well, it's first modems than the internet.

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I still remember like the first time on a 300-baud modem,

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I see text entering the screen that that almost not a typing speed,

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_01]: but almost a typing speed.

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_01]: The idea of I've never seen I didn't write this text and yet

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_01]: this text is appearing on my screen.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_01]: This is incredible.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_01]: This is wonderful.

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_01]: This is thought provoking.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But then when when it was became possible to for ordinary people

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_01]: to have access to the internet and I mean, it becomes what can I get into?

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_01]: What can I access?

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And just the idea of getting a weather report from university in Germany

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_01]: was amazing.

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Totally.

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And then when Archie and Veronica servers, which was sort of

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_01]: pre-cursors to the web because they are file servers that are designed

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_01]: to be open repository.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess the I guess the closest thing for people who are unfamiliar with it is

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of like a shared drop back drop box folder with public access,

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_01]: only of course really hard to get into.

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to have a lot of knowledge to do it.

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Then finding all this information, particularly information that will

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_01]: get you to the next level of what you're trying to learn about the

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_01]: internet.

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_01]: That's just wow, how much is out there?

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's when it's like, I'm sorry that I have to go to work at 9 a.m.

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I have sorry that I have class at 8 a.m.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_01]: because it's now 7 30.

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_01]: There's no point in going to bed because.

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'll tell you the thing that's really, really hit home.

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_01]: It tells a story about how the internet used to be kind of like

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_01]: a club because it was not user friendly.

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It was not intentionally user hostile, but it was very, very geeky.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_01]: OK.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_01]: If you got onto use net, which was like the internet's message board.

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, the fact that you were there meant that, OK, I don't know who you are.

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But we have probably gone through similar life experiences.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_01]: If you were if you've heard of use net and you're interested enough

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_01]: in the internet and this concept to figure out how to get on there.

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I was on the alt dot books, so use net.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're talking about like, I forget how the conversation came up.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But I came across, oh, yeah, there's this book called the SAS survival guide

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that I saw like Barnes and Noble, like on the clearance rack.

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sorry, a couple of years ago, I'm sorry, I didn't get it

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_01]: because it was really, really interesting with lots of little

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_01]: like diagrams and stuff like that.

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm in Boston and I get this and I get a reply from someone

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_01]: in New Zealand saying, well, actually, that's in the corner bookstore.

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you want me to buy it for you?

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I said, oh, that'd be great.

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And like without with and all that happened was like at the same time

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_01]: he bought this book for me and mailed it to me.

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I like I forget how I did it, but some sort of like whatever

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_01]: international transfer I sent him money.

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_01]: At the same time, neither of these two people having any solid knowledge

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_01]: that I'm going to get my money back or I'm going to get my book.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And I like that.

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I can kind of let's also be honest.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about like 15 bucks.

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not talking about like a million dollars.

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's still exactly shows you there's this if you're on this.

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're on alt dot books,

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I you're probably at least 15 dollars for the trustworthy.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, we're both there for the same reason.

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_03]: We're both, you know, excited about the fact that this could even happen.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_03]: It's so easy to take that that sort of simple transaction for granted now.

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_03]: But at the time, that was a really big deal.

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_03]: The fact that they're the fact that you could use a computer in that way

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_03]: across the world and have any sort of, you know, kind of

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_03]: commerce experience with someone else from there.

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's that's awesome.

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and also the feeling that

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if the word parasocial existed before the Internet,

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_01]: but it was definitely necessary for it to be created.

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_01]: The idea of here is a relationship that is real,

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_01]: but only to a certain extent.

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So that all books was definitely a parasocial relationship where I know of

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and I used to back in the old days used to have to qualify to people.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But referred to somebody as my close personal friend, they knew that, OK,

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_01]: here's somebody that he knows through like the copy serve,

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_01]: like comic book forum, but has never actually physically met.

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_01]: He's upgraded to actual friend when I've actually like had lunch with them.

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I mean, it's the start of society is trying to figure out.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Especially on YouTube, I know so much about this person now.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I know so much about their life.

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I know so much about their drama.

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Isn't it? I don't know about you, but isn't it so weird when like there's

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_01]: somebody who like on Instagram that you enjoy their artwork?

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_01]: You really like them?

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_01]: You bought like some of their stuff, maybe support them on Patreon or whatever.

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And then like they've had some sort of a family tragedy

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and like they've decided to publish about it or write about it.

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm like,

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_01]: do should I like what?

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_01]: What is what if it's a friend, you know exactly what to do.

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, what is the appropriate?

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like I know I know I know this about you.

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I also know so much about your relationship with this person

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_01]: because you've been posting on Instagram about this person for like seven, eight,

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_01]: nine years.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Like is it creepy for me to say, oh, well, I know that I know

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that you love this person very much and you were very careful, Carol.

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_01]: You're a very caring person.

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's like, well, again, is that a creepy thing for me to do

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_01]: because I don't know who you are.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really know all I know is the stuff that you posted.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have you ever got like that.

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, for sure.

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, I think I think the the opposite side of that, too,

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_03]: where when we as public people on the Internet

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_03]: meet someone who has followed our work and, you know,

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_03]: this actually just happened not too long ago.

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, a handful of days ago in New York where I got together

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_03]: for a drink with someone who definitely met online through

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_03]: podcasting and stuff.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, he felt weird at one point asking me like about

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_03]: how is the family?

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_03]: How are your daughters?

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, because because he knows that I've shared what I've shared online.

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_03]: But he also realized like, but I don't actually know them.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. And I only know what you've ever said on online.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, it's it's an interesting kind of

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of additional layer of how well we know people and how close

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_03]: like what closeness actually is in the in the in the reality of,

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, this this modern age of the Internet where we share so much

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_03]: about ourselves in many different ways and especially podcasting

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_03]: being the forum that it is. It's a very intimate forum.

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I'm putting you your voice directly into my ears

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_03]: and, you know, going to hear every word that you say for the next

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_03]: hour every single week.

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And people do attach to that that kind of feeling of like,

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_03]: well, I know this person. I know who they are.

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, not only that, but

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_01]: oftentimes you find that you've inserted yourself into people's

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_01]: lives in ways that you never expected.

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, you know, you're

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_01]: a family member as critically ill.

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And as I unfortunately, a lot of other people know, when you have

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_01]: like a parent who is critically ill, a lot of your time is spent

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_01]: being nearby but not being able to do anything, but you just

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_01]: want to be nearby. And if this podcast helped you, you're

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_01]: just I'm binge watching this, I'm binge listening to this

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_01]: podcast and it gave me a lot of strength, it gave me a lot

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_01]: of peace, it gave me a lot of time out.

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And you don't know how you feel as though you want to express

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_01]: that to that creator and you hopefully are wanting to do it

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_01]: in a way that is not very creepy.

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Because they, because they maybe they think that there's

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_01]: going to be a quick, oh, well, thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_01]: it. But I think we all have these people in our lives,

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_01]: celebrities, writers, whatever, where it's like, boy, if I had

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_01]: five minutes to talk to this person, I would say

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_01]: you're this thing that you made really helped me out. And of

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_01]: course, you're trying to bookend it with I'm not a I don't I

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_01]: don't think that you're close personal friend of mine. I'm not

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_01]: going to be stalking or anything like that. I just want you

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_01]: to know that like if you as we were as you and I were

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_01]: talking about earlier on, like having a frustrating moment

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that we're trying to create the next episode of the

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_01]: podcast next column, the next book and whatever, if you

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_01]: need a piece of strength, let know that there are people

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_01]: you have no idea what good that you're creating just by

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_01]: creating. Yeah, and then yeah, I mean, I've done that once or

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_01]: twice before. And I feel like I'm speaking like Luca Brazzi,

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, in the Godfather, which is like, and now Godfather,

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I know that you are a busy man. And I believe you to the

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_01]: rest of the day. I simply thank you for having me

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_01]: because there's it because there was this soprano my favorite

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_01]: sopranos Joyce Di Donato has, she does these master classes.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're all over YouTube. And they're not and you would

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_01]: as usually you think of a master music master classes, oh,

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_01]: here's your technique, Oh, you need your place, your voice

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_01]: your vocal placement is here should be here. Or it's she

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_01]: does them differently. She's mostly talking about the

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_01]: process of creation of creating this performance. And I

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_01]: spend that they're so inspirational to me. Because

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes when I do feel like, Oh, man, I'm just stuck. I'll

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_01]: watch one of our master classes in which, you know, the the

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_01]: lesson is usually, you know, just be create basically

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_01]: creativity is never a solved problem. It's not like, great,

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I figured I figured out how to write, write a tech review.

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I know how to do it's like, no, yeah, you wrote

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_01]: a ongoing process. And so at the Metropolitan Opera, you

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_01]: can go back. There's a artist interest area that is very

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_01]: low key. It's like, it's accepted that, you know, it's not

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_01]: there'll be a small group of people that might be, you know,

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_01]: hanging out to say hi to people coming out. And so yeah, it

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_01]: was like that. And I and she is so inspirational. There were

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_01]: like a lot of like students, like hanging around. And she

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_01]: she happened to be like near me first. I'm like, I have to

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_01]: keep this short because it's she's gonna have the when a

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_01]: student when someone who's their teens or like in the

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_01]: in college age, like talks to someone like Joyce, that

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_01]: could be a life altering, like, life boost. And I

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_01]: don't want to be high. I'm a middle aged man about your

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_01]: age. And I just want to say, I just want to say I watched

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_01]: all your videos and I think they're but I did feel as

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_01]: though it was important to say, gosh, you're a writer and

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_01]: you and you inspire me because I'm sure you and I have

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_01]: you you as well have had these moments where someone

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_01]: said something really, really nice to you and maybe

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_01]: you didn't 100%. And it was like, gosh, that was so kind

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_01]: of them to say. And it's so good to know now that

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_01]: now that you're working yourself as well, like, you're

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_01]: in the house for you're in the house alone. You don't

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_01]: know coworkers, you set you hit send you hit post and

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_01]: you're not really sure that anybody's actually

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, actually reading it. And so it's good to know

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_01]: that like, okay, good, this is

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I would say I would say in general, I

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_03]: would make the assumption personally that anyone who

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_03]: is a true creative, you know, creating something

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_03]: of value for themselves that they want to share with

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_03]: the world that they're choosing to share with the

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_03]: world would probably love to know the positive impact

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_03]: that that has on other people that people either

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_03]: liked it, or, you know, or I guess if they had a

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_03]: critique, that's that's fine too. But I guess what

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm talking about more is like that that it

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_03]: that it connected with them on a similar level

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_03]: that maybe it connected with me when I create it

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and yeah, I've certainly had that experience where

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_03]: someone shares that and I'm just like, oh, and

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_03]: every time like I'm just I'm elated and like, oh, man,

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_03]: thank you for sharing that because most people

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_03]: don't. Yeah. And it really does feel good to know

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_03]: that when you're creating something, there's

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_03]: people out there on the other side that, you

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_03]: know, are receiving the message or appreciating

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_03]: it or whatever. Absolutely.

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a let me tell you a quick story

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_01]: that I'm still like flabbergasted by. So I

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_01]: was at the I was at the opening of the very

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_01]: first Apple store in Soho. And I was and because

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_01]: it I think the opening was like at six of it

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_01]: was going to go on for several hours. This is

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_01]: that Macworld expo. So most of the people who

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: are interested in going were probably had

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_01]: probably had dinner plans. They were keeping

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_01]: those dinner plans. So for a good like half

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: hour, it was like me, Steve Jobs and like

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_01]: 20 other people maybe. Okay. And so a

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: name that I think you'll recognize Colin

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Crawford, who was the publisher of Macworld

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: was there. And I might be misremembering

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: specifics, but anyway, so whoever it is,

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: publisher was like talking to Steve Jobs

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: about some of the books that he had written

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: that his his house had written was

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: published for for iLife, I think at the

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: time and took one of the books off the

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: shelf there at the at the store showed

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: it to Steve. And Steve was like, Oh my

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: God, this is great. He's looking through

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: it and he didn't stand Steve doesn't

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_01]: isn't a bsr. But wow, this is this shows

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_01]: everything. This is perfect. I remember

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you saying this was perfect. And like four

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: months later, I remember this incident.

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And I like I sent the email to the

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: author saying that I don't think it's

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: it's impossible that they didn't tell

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: you about this. But just in case I

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_01]: thought I'd tell you and it gave you

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_01]: because it was fresh. It was a lot more

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: detail about it. It was like, Oh my

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_01]: God, Steve said that like there's a

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: great bad idea.

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like that sort of stuff will

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: like, especially as a book as a

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_01]: book writer, which is the most horrible

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: job imaginable. It's like that will get

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_01]: you through another like yes, 22 hour

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: day. And again, it's not important

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that you impress other people, but it's

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: good to know that what you were

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: trying to achieve was noticed and

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_01]: appreciated by somebody else. And if

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_01]: it's Steve Jobs, all the better.

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, 100%. Yeah.

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a pretty pretty awesome

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_03]: endorsement right there. Andy, I

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_03]: know I got to let you go because we're

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_03]: bumping up on the time that that we

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_03]: had agreed on. And I just want to let

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, like I really appreciate the

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_03]: work that you do on an ongoing basis.

[01:01:59] [SPEAKER_03]: You are a voice that I trust.

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm doing the thing now that we were

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_03]: just talking about.

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate your voice and technology

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_03]: and I just yeah, just a big

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_03]: fan of all the podcasting

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_03]: that you've done over the years.

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I've worked pretty closely with your

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_03]: content in my time at Twitter.

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_03]: So I was fortunate enough to

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: listen to your views on technology

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_03]: a lot over the years.

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And I just really appreciate you.

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for doing what you do and

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_03]: keep up the wonderful work.

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Where do you want people to go to

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of, you know, if you wanted to

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_03]: point people to one place to find

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_03]: where you're up to? Where would that

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_01]: be? For now, check out my socials.

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: If we talked about like you're

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: bigger in the club if you can figure

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: out how to get to using it.

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_01]: If you can spell my last name,

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: IHN is a Nancy, A-T is Tom

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_01]: K-O on Instagram and

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Threads and elsewhere.

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: You'll be keeping up today.

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope to have a brand new

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: announcement of a new venture for

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_01]: my writing very, very shortly.

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It's been something I've been working

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_01]: on for a long, long time

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: because I want to make sure that I

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_01]: get it right.

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to make sure I have systems.

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It's more ambitious than just

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: all this occasionally write about

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: this and that.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But again, giving myself that

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: venue that I missed that if I just

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: want to write about it, I'll

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: just write about it and I'll post

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: it. So that's nearly done.

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And so keep keep one in touch

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: there to my socials.

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll have hopefully an announcement

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: very, very soon as well as

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: check me out on the Mac Break

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: podcast on Twitter.

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: The material podcast where we talk

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: about Google on the relay network.

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you go to WGBH news

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: dot org, you can listen to my

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: occasional 20 to 30 minute tech

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: news roundup segments, Heidi

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Hoes on Boston Public Radio.

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Andy.

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_03]: It was such a pleasure.

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I really enjoyed this.

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I really did too.

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for being here with us.

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate it.

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks. All right.

[01:03:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Huge thanks to our guest, Andy

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_03]: and not goes great catching up with

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Andy as for this show,

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_03]: all things Tech Splotter can be

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_03]: found at Tech Splotter dot com.

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_03]: So if you've got one place you

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_03]: want to remember, just go to

[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Tech Splotter dot com.

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_03]: The podcast premieres every

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Thursday at 10 a.m.

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Pacific 1 p.m. Eastern

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[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_03]: channel with the audio podcast

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_03]: publishing to the feeds later that

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[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_03]: interviews as well

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[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Tech Splotter t-shirt thrown

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_03]: in for good measure, just

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_03]: like this week's executive

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_03]: producers, Bill Rudder,

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Jeffrey Maricini, John Cuny,

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Taylor Sunderhaus and WPVM

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_03]: 103.7 in Asheville,

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_03]: North Carolina.

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you all so very much for

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_03]: your support of what we're

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_03]: doing here with Tech Splotter

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Patreon dot com slash

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Jason Howell.

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks again to our guest,

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Andy Anato, thanks to you for

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_03]: watching and listening each and

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_03]: every week. I'm Jason Howell.

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll see you next time on a

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_03]: new episode of the Tech

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Splotter podcast.

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Bye everybody.