Liam Spradlin

[00:00:00] Design is inherently a subjective experience. You can't rely on rational mathematics to create a successful design. This is the Techsploder podcast, conversations with tech professionals about being human in a binary world. Episode eight, Liam Spratlin.

[00:00:24] Techsploder is made possible by the financial support of our patrons like Anthony Tusson. If you like what you hear, head on over to patreon.com slash Jason Howell, like Anthony did, and you can support the show directly. And thank you for making independent podcasting possible.

[00:00:41] Hello and welcome to the Techsploder podcast. I'm Jason Howell. And joining me this week is an old friend of mine from the Android days over at all that Android at Twitter, Liam Spratlin, who's actually a designer at Google now.

[00:00:56] It used to be that he was a journalist, but he's working closely with material design to bring new adaptive layout systems and components, two devices across Google's hardware ecosystem. Now, before Google, like I said, Liam wrote extensively about the Android operating system for Android police.

[00:01:16] And Liam is now the host of the Design Notes podcast where he explores the philosophy behind great design work. And we really get into the weeds on the topic of digital design here. It's a fascinating conversation with someone who talks about the art of design

[00:01:33] in a way that I haven't really heard before. So let's get right into it. My conversation with Liam Spratlin. Liam Spratlin, it is awesome to get the chance to talk to you. And I got to say, like the last time we spoke your life, I think,

[00:01:50] I mean, we've probably run into each other at Google I.O. from time to time. But I think the last time we really got a chance to actually, like, you know, converse back and forth. It's probably one of your many appearances on all about Android so

[00:02:03] many years ago in your life. My house has changed in the interim. How are you doing? It's great to see you. Good. It's good to see you too. Yeah. I mean, as you said, like the last time that I was in person at I.O. was 2019.

[00:02:17] So there's, I mean, yeah, everything is like worlds apart by now. In some ways and in some ways the same. Yeah. So we were talking right before kind of firing this off. And I think I only just right before kind of jumping into the

[00:02:35] stream yard, which we used to record the show to record this, I was kind of gathering links and everything. And I noticed on your I think it was your Twitter Twitter profile. The the different was it? Yes. The different location icon.

[00:02:48] I was like, oh, OK, no longer in the States. And you told me you moved to Switzerland. Anyone who is unfamiliar with Liam, I have a huge amount of respect for Liam because he pulled off something that I think a lot of people in our

[00:03:04] like Android circles, whether they want to admit it or not, probably would love to pull off at some point, which is at least find themselves in a situation where they realize that all the work that they do analyzing and evaluating the work that Google does

[00:03:21] led to Google reaching out and saying, at least I'm assuming this, you can tell me a little bit of the story. But reaching out and saying, hey, why don't you just come work for us? And you were always very dialed into the design kind of aesthetic

[00:03:34] and the design approach of things like material design and what, you know, how Android was developing. So in a weird way, and I hope this doesn't sound strange to say this in a weird way, it felt like kind of like success for probably not only

[00:03:49] for you because I have to imagine that was a cool experience. But for those of us also working in the industry and doing what we do because it was a little bit of confirmation of like, oh, they're listening. They're actually paying attention.

[00:04:00] And that's just really cool that the mothership went come with us, Liam. Yeah. And I definitely got a lot of people around that time saying like, Liam, you have to like once you're in there, you have to tell them to fix this thing or like change this.

[00:04:15] I'm sure this feature. I'm like, yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying like I'm filing the box. Yeah, it was it was a cool like and so so what I was leading to is that, you know, prior to sounds like the pandemic or right around the pandemic time,

[00:04:30] you moved to Switzerland, which you said is a place that is rich in design, which when I think of you, I think the thing I admire most is your just inherent creativity. You're a creative person and it's just of course you would move to Switzerland

[00:04:47] because you're you're probably soaking in the value, the beauty of the design that surrounds you. It's a culture that really pays close attention to that and has high respect for that. Yeah. I mean, so there's so much design heritage here in terms of graphic design.

[00:05:05] And at the same time, I also see Switzerland as kind of a synthesis of like the other places that I've lived in my life. Like I come from Kentucky. I moved from Kentucky to New York, which is like,

[00:05:19] you know, from from a small place to a very big place. Yeah, I know that in Switzerland, I'm like in a medium sized place. I live in Zurich, so it's a city, but it's still like so close to mountains and forests and nature.

[00:05:32] And I feel like that's also in addition to, you know, all of the design history that's here. I find that really like revitalizing and inspiring as well. Yeah, I can imagine. And you know, you're just surrounded. I mean, being where you are geographically speaking,

[00:05:48] you're surrounded by just an insane amount of rich, very, very unique history from a design perspective. Like when I think of Europe and mind you, I've never been to Europe. I've only seen it from afar. And of course, this episode is actually coming out while

[00:06:04] me and my family are in Italy for the very first time. But when I think of Europe, I just I think of that rich, like visual aspect of there's a million different aspects to the history in Europe. But everything that I see from afar just tells me

[00:06:20] like from an architecture standpoint, from a design standpoint, it's got to be so inspiring to be surrounded by this, considering you do what you do for a living. Yeah, I mean, it's it's the least I can say is that it's a different visual culture

[00:06:35] from living in the US with much longer history and like so many more interactions between so many different, you know, producers of visual culture. And, you know, in school, I studied art and sociology. So that's like what I have a degree in is actually sociology

[00:06:59] with a minor in studio art. And so. That's how I got into design at the intersection of those two things. And I also think that's what I see around me here, like the intersection of. Creating beauty and creating meaning at the same time,

[00:07:17] like considering how people interact with the world as you're creating something that needs to serve an aesthetic purpose to. Yeah, and I mean, you work, of course, now, like, like I mentioned, you work for Google, you're working with design within the company,

[00:07:31] which we can talk a little bit about. But I imagine like how how does your work and your kind of being surrounded by all of this, you know, inspirational design that that feeds into the work that you do? What is the kind of crossover point between the design

[00:07:50] aesthetic and and how that kind of impacts, let's say, a user of a Google product? Because at the end of the day, like I like I remember and I'm sure you remember this too. There was a time when as an Android user, a very early Android user,

[00:08:05] I would look at the Android platform and I would think, ah, you know, I love Android for many reasons. Design isn't necessarily one of them. It's got some rough edges. It was really when material design kind of came along that was like,

[00:08:17] OK, Google is actually thinking about this now and considering what they can do to create a product that looks visually appealing that actually stands up to some of the other examples out there. iOS and I don't think it was iOS at the time, but the iPhone and everything

[00:08:34] like that. So and how that design approach actually impacts like the user experience and how we how we like to use our devices versus prior to I don't really know what the question is in there. But what comes to mind to you on that end?

[00:08:50] How those things kind of interplay? Yeah, I mean, I think something that stood out to me about material from the beginning is that it was inherently expressive and unafraid to be graphic like so much of the influence in material comes from graphic design.

[00:09:09] And I think that's still the case now. I think we've gained like besides more technological power to do it, also just like a deeper and more nuanced understanding of like how to make something that produces like reliable outputs in response to unpredictable inputs, meaning like personalization,

[00:09:31] like finding because, you know, back in those early days, like I was also modding my phone and like of doing ugly stuff to the interface. Like just for fun because I wanted to and I could and like that's that's really powerful.

[00:09:44] And I think, yeah, like part of our task is to figure out like when people do that, what is it that's making that that look personal to you? Which I think, yeah, I think I think it's only becoming more important because our interface with this technology is like

[00:10:05] so personal and so such a kind of deep mediator of our daily experience. Yeah, that's so true, right? Like, you know, now more than ever and it continues and continues to kind of solidify itself as a reality for us year after year.

[00:10:24] But now more than ever that smartphone that we interact with, it's it's such a close relationship to us. Like when we think of all the people that are in our lives, you know, for some people, they spend more time interacting with their phone

[00:10:38] and all the things it can do than they do with actual humans. You know what I mean? Like we spend so much of our time focused on that. And so, yeah, the design, that experience, that's incredibly important

[00:10:50] and probably has some impact on how we are and how we maneuver through the world. You know, if it's inspirational to work with, if it's frustrating or confusing, that impacts us on an emotional level to a certain degree outside of that little black rectangle device.

[00:11:10] Yeah. And it creates it creates like entirely new experiences and entirely new ways of experiencing the world. Like, but I also think that like in design, our work, even before we had screens, like it has always been interfacial. Like designers have always been trying to make the interface.

[00:11:33] I published something recently on my blog about this fountain in Zurich that I came across and I don't remember exactly like why I started researching this fountain. And I think I was trying to write something that made a point about the interfacial nature of the built environment,

[00:11:49] like how Zurich has like the most fountains of any city. How do people, something that was shocking for me is like you can drink from almost every fountain. Like if you can't drink from it, there has to be a big loud sign

[00:12:03] that tells you you can't drink from it. And I was like, how can that be? Like, how do people feel secure drinking from random fountains everywhere on the street? That's a really good point. So I started looking at this one in particular because it's it's really cool.

[00:12:17] Often like the nearby church, I think will like fill it with roses, which is really beautiful. So I was like looking at all these different aspects of it to figure out like how do people know you can drink from this?

[00:12:29] And and yeah, it built on this idea that like designers have always been trying to capture meaning and significance in objects to like teach someone else about the world, which by the way, I think in doing so, like we're trying to

[00:12:47] teach ourselves about the world and like understand ourselves by creating stuff for other people. But yeah, something like that. Like the whole everything that is designed is interfacial and there's like a longing and design to to reach the subjectivity of another person through an object.

[00:13:09] Right. Yeah, I have some sort of kind of a deeper connection. When you design, I imagine because I'm not a designer. You know, I try and teach myself things like design. And I think I get OK.

[00:13:19] But when I look at like some of your designs and, you know, others who really know what they're doing, there's obviously a deeper seated understanding of the language and the interplay between objects and colors and the compositional aspects of things that make something beautiful.

[00:13:35] And yeah, when we see that, we there's something about that experience when it's done really well or when it's very unique that pulls us into the item or into the picture or whatever. That's more than just looking at an image.

[00:13:53] It's it's like contemplating like what is what does this image mean for me? And I think that's what that's what's so interesting about what you're talking about with material design, because I think prior to material design, Android didn't have a any sort of real cohesive language

[00:14:10] that made you want to care much about it other than it's just a smartphone that does things. And once material design kind of came along and has grown over time and you've been a part of how it's how it's grown for sure,

[00:14:22] it started to really kind of create at least a little bit more of like an emotional connection, I think I'm guessing with most users. I know certainly for me, I care a lot a lot more about it now than I ever did prior to material design.

[00:14:36] And that's as a designer, I imagine that's what you're hoping for. Right? You've created this thing. You put your heart and your soul and your knowledge and everything into this thing that's intensely creative. You want the person on the other end to connect with it

[00:14:50] in some sort of emotional or meaningful way. Yeah, I mean, yeah, at a base level, I wanted to be meaningful to that person and in their life, not necessarily because of how it's designed, but that should be part of it.

[00:15:04] It should be, yeah, it should be one thing. Yeah, yeah. OK, so when we're talking about intentional design, you know, this is obviously this is something that you've you've worked on for many years now. You I'm sure are very intentional with how you create what you create.

[00:15:24] And then we pair that with kind of some recent developments on in the world of Android artificial intelligence and specifically what I'm thinking about are like generative AI wallpapers. You know, we're talking about customization and creating something as a designer and the role that you're in right now

[00:15:42] as someone who has created a career around your intentionality with design. How do you feel about a feature that in some ways bypasses or maybe that's the wrong way to look at it, but in some ways takes a shortcut around your intentionality and goes for the total random.

[00:16:00] Oh, wow, that's that's good enough. I'll go with that. You know, that sort of thing. Yeah, I think I mean, first of all, like going back to the early days of Android, I want to celebrate ugly design.

[00:16:12] I'm I don't claim like I don't claim any ownership over the experience that somebody wants to have on their device. I think that's not my job. So in that sense, I'm not bothered. I also don't think that generative AI, at least in the short or medium term,

[00:16:28] is going to like explode the discipline. I think it will provide some efficiencies, but I also think that like the road to creating a holistic intentional design is or something flexible enough to change on the fly or or adapt based on, I don't know, some some imaginary

[00:16:51] like AI understanding of what you're doing. The road to get there is paved with so many tiny intentional nuanced subjective decisions that the role of the designer subjectivity cannot be eliminated. I've been talking about and dreaming about and working on adaptive design for like

[00:17:18] I don't know, like eight years at this point. And I feel like we're making progress on that. But it's I often joke that like my day to day is like, I'm moving so many rectangles around on the screen, like so many you cannot believe.

[00:17:34] And in fact, like, I guess at some level, everything on a screen is a rectangle. The buttons that I'm pressing to type in the guidelines are rectangles. It all comes back to that. There's like so many tiny, tiny nuanced steps along the way

[00:17:48] that like build toward that vision. That one, I think it's going to take us a while longer to get there. And two, I think it's really exciting to finally be getting to that point as well. Yeah, when I look at, you know, as a as a musician

[00:18:07] creative, not like a graphic design creative, but I think they all kind of fall into a similar bucket of just overall, you know, creativity and a lot of different directions. When I look at what artificial intelligence is bringing to the table or potential of artificial intelligence,

[00:18:23] I feel like you can go in a couple of different directions and people often go to the scary. This is going to replace what I do me and what I do. I don't go in that direction.

[00:18:32] I go more in the human direction of maybe this gives me the ability to do more things I couldn't do before or, you know, makes it easier for me to do certain things that I can do. Easier for me to do certain things that I've done before

[00:18:46] to free me up to do something new that I've never done before. And I imagine that's definitely the case with with AI and, you know, a graphic design. We probably, you know, we've never seen the the be all end all of of anything creative.

[00:19:03] There's always something new that hasn't been created before. But that's definitely the case with with graphic design with user interface. And that's exciting, right? Like this might open the door for something that we just don't know yet because we haven't seen. Yeah.

[00:19:17] I mean, humans are never going to stop creating period. And as long as we're doing that, there will be people who are receptive to those creations. Yeah. And I also think like. Having a human subjective point of view makes the work interesting as well.

[00:19:33] If if we get to a point where we can say that AI has a point of view, that will be interesting and worth exploring. And I think already it's like there are a lot of philosophical questions raised

[00:19:45] when we use words like agents or agentic AI, things like that. Like we have a lot to talk about. And I think that that makes it interesting in a certain way. But I think. That I don't I'm not like I'm not afraid

[00:20:02] of the subjective viewpoint of humans being being replaced or negated because I don't think it can be. Yeah, I agree. I'm right there with you. Just real quick, just to interject, I wish I had thought about this. I have. Oh, wait, no, I see it.

[00:20:19] Hold on one second. Hold on. I want to show this to you. So OK. So at Google I.O. I don't even know what year I walked away with a piece of swag from Google I.O. And I wonder if you have this. You probably have this.

[00:20:41] It's like, do you do you know what this is? This is a booklet. It's like a material design booklet that was meant to, I guess, I guess encapsulate the approach of material design and but but in a kind of paper form, which I guess was

[00:20:58] the idea of material design from the beginning, which was, you know, that yes, it's a digital UI, but that it's meant to more replicate kind of the tangible qualities of of actual actual things like paper and gravel and, you know, all those kinds of things.

[00:21:17] And I don't know, this is one of this is one of those one of those kind of totems that I that I've collected over the years that I just really cherish because I know it's there probably aren't a whole

[00:21:27] lot of these out in the public, but it's so unique. And this was the type of thing that got me as a user, got me really excited about the direction of material design. And it's evolved a lot over the years.

[00:21:40] Do you think do you think material design has at this point kind of achieved what what, you know, those like Matias Duarte and those the other designers yourself included. But even prior to your joining Google, you know, material design was around.

[00:21:56] Has it achieved the goal and what what is yet to be discovered as far as your concern, as far as the development of material design and where I mean, we can't possibly know. Can we? Yeah. But I think I would say like, it's never done.

[00:22:12] We're always like responding to responding to conditions. And I mean, that's what we talk about an adoptive design as well. Like you have to build a system that's capable of responding to things that you don't know about as the designer. Like it isn't you can't predict every circumstance

[00:22:30] in which somebody is going to use your work and and it's it's kind of none of your business even. So building a system that's robust enough to handle that is important. I think like something that, yeah, going back to the we now call M1 that that like

[00:22:50] that artifact that you have. So that's what that is called. That's called M1 that she the whole that whole kind of like generation of materials M1. Got it. But. Yeah, it's it was making explicit something that I think has happened throughout the history of computing, which is like.

[00:23:10] Trying to use what you know to explain what you don't know or like introduce you to something that you haven't encountered before. And to some extent, I also think like talking to a chatbot is this way. Like how can we interface with this like this thing, the model,

[00:23:26] you know, maybe language. But anyway, like if you look at early computing, it's not a coincidence that like the the conceit of like the desktop and folders and those things like emerged at the same time as as graphical interface. And there's there are also stories about like

[00:23:49] the MTA ticket machines in New York and how like confusing it was for people to encounter a touchscreen in public for the first time. We've always been trying to do that. And I think what made material special when it launched is like

[00:24:02] making that connection explicit and saying like, hey, you you already know how to use this. Yes, exactly. Removing kind of the ambiguity or almost the syntax. That's something that I realize, you know, more and more is anytime anything has some sort of a syntax

[00:24:22] or that you're you're taking your wide pool of people who get it, who understand, who will be right there with you and you're always shortening it with any extra bit of resistance. And I think that's exactly it. Yeah, like when you first encountered a touchscreen

[00:24:37] at the turnstiles and the iPad didn't exist, it seems so intuitive now. But there was a first time. And at that point, you're just asking yourself, like, wait a minute, I just point at the thing I want to touch. Sounds great, great and intuitive.

[00:24:50] But it still takes a little bit of a learning, you know, learning curve. It's only intuitive once you know it. I think I think the idea of it being part of your intuition points to like prior experiences that would build that up.

[00:25:01] And in many cases, like we just don't have that, like there's no analog in the real world for the hamburger menu. Like, where do you encounter that? Right. Other than a hamburger shop. We're going to take a quick break.

[00:25:19] And then when we come back, I want to talk to you a little bit about like where this all began for you. And then I always like to ask just a few random questions in the world of technology that's coming up.

[00:25:31] All right, so let's kind of go back in time a little bit. I want to know a little bit about Liam kind of prior to professional, you know, career designer, Liam, even Android Liam. When you were younger, like one thing I love about this show

[00:25:49] is kind of the nostalgic quality of it. We get to kind of like relive the things that really got us excited about technology and that led us to where we are now. And I have to imagine, I remember when I was very young,

[00:26:00] I had a very old Macintosh and it was black and white screen and I had some graphic design software on there and I made a fanzine. Did you like what is there a software or a machine or a way that you were able to kind of explore

[00:26:16] some of the things that you do now back when you were a kid? Or was that even on your radar at that point? I think when I was a kid, I think we got a computer like fairly late compared to most of my peers, I think.

[00:26:31] And before that, I was like making a lot of little like stapled together books and like, I don't know. It's hard to say whether there was like some some root of design there. I can't detect it when I look back at those things now.

[00:26:49] But once we had a computer, yeah, I was like pretty pretty eye opening. I spent a lot of time on the family computer like with paint shop and I also was like making little websites and really going wild with table based HTML layouts. So, yeah, it was cool.

[00:27:16] It was it was like a way of a way of making something that was mine. There was or was about me or like some something that I wanted to explore. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, when you when you talk about, you know, putting together the books

[00:27:35] and not being able to draw the correlation, there's still a creation element there that I think, at least in my mind, outside looking in seems to draw between, which is you've I mean, in order to do that because I because I did something very similar

[00:27:52] when I was younger, I would create these little comic books or I created, like I said, a fanzine and stuff in order to do that. You have to kind of flex that that kind of design muscle

[00:28:02] in order to know how things are going to look on the page. And that's that that definitely seems like kind of a the the the sprout that leads to, you know, a career or at least an interest

[00:28:15] in how things look either on a page or on a screen or wherever they happen to be. Not everybody has the ability to do that. They look at a blank blank slate or blank canvas and they're frozen in time. They don't know.

[00:28:27] Yeah. I mean, and I mean to tell the truth, I'm still chasing book design. It's still my dream to design a book one day. Oh, really? What kind of book? Like like a graphical book or? It doesn't matter.

[00:28:41] I I've done layout design as a freelancer at a few points in my career. But I just love I love making layouts and I love going in in design and playing around. There was there was like actually me and another person on the material team

[00:28:55] a few years ago were like really set on making a design kit for material components in design. It never happened, but we talked about it seriously. Could happen. You never know. This actually leads into something else that I wanted to ask you about, which is typefaces.

[00:29:14] This is I mean, we're talking about book design typefaces. Another one of those things where I'm just like, man, I have so much respect for people who can do that because, yes, it's it's highly graphical. But when I think about creating a typeface,

[00:29:28] I I just I think about that the patience that's probably pretty required in order to do that properly. You're talking about a whole, you know, a whole character set that all have to be cohesive in some way, shape or form.

[00:29:44] It's a high high level of detail needs to be paid to that. Talk a little bit about that process. Is this something that you've only recently started working with? Type design. Well, in terms of starting working with it, I that's been like several years ago now

[00:30:04] about a year before I went to the Cooper Union to do the extended type at Cooper program there, which was I was there for like a couple of years doing type design. And for me, type design is like a really ideal design discipline because it gets at

[00:30:24] like directly at the heart of what I was talking about earlier, which is like something that is in some ways highly systematic. I mean, if you're making a typeface that supports like the Latin character set, you're already systematizing an assemblage of like three different writing systems

[00:30:42] into one cohesive whole. So there's already that part of the challenge. Then on top of that, like it actually can't be too systematic. You unlike on screens, I think you really can't rely too much on numbers and math to get the typeface right.

[00:30:59] There will always be some like jiggling the handle, you know, like moving spending hours, like moving this point like this way and that way and this way and that and like a little up a little down.

[00:31:12] And then that's before you even get to spacing and kerning, which is like a whole like it really shows you in kind of a painful but also very beautiful way that design is inherently a subjective experience and that you can't rely on rational mathematics

[00:31:35] to create a successful design. It won't work in type design. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your so you have a type set that you've created. Is it's called Gearsol? Is that right? Gearsol. Yeah, Gearsol. It means sunflower in Portuguese. And I love it.

[00:32:00] Yeah, so tell me a little bit about how you created this and like the inspiration behind this and. Yeah, this actually draws in another one of our friends, Francisco Franco. Yes. Who I worked with on many apps. We're still friends. I went to visit him in Portugal

[00:32:22] and I was going there like once a year in the summer or something. And the place where I'd always stay was like a place where all the streets were named after flowers. So you have like Bocanviá, Gearsol, Gearanho. Like all these flower names, I thought that was beautiful.

[00:32:40] The street signs there are like the ceramic tile. Kind of what do you call that? Like a plinth on the street. And they're painted by local artists, like a local ceramic studio who's doing all of the lettering on those signs.

[00:32:59] And I wanted to just like play with that because I thought it was really beautiful. So when year when I was there, I started taking a bunch of reference photos and then I would sit outside of the place I was staying

[00:33:09] with like a bag of cherries that I just bought off the street and just try to draw the forms that I was seeing. And it started falling together into a really nice system that I really enjoyed. It was a fun exercise to try to like

[00:33:27] bring all of those drawings together into a typeface that actually functions. Yeah. And how do you know when you've done enough work with a typeface? Because I think, you know, inherent in anything creative, we could go forever and we could probably always find imperfections in our work.

[00:33:45] But that's kind of an elusive quality. There is no such thing as perfect. There's just such thing as I decided to be done and to move on. Yeah. And I mean, if I if I if if there were such things perfect

[00:33:58] and I reached it, I think I would be terrified like I don't want that. It can't it can't be that because then then it's too it would have to be too rational. There would be no trace of myself or my experience in the place left there.

[00:34:13] But to tell the truth, I still work on it. Like I still have updates for Jero Sol that I haven't pushed yet with like I have a Greek compliment for the typeface. I have like a different weight that I've been working on.

[00:34:25] I tried a variable version of the typeface also. But yeah, I have I have a push to me because they're not they're not like complete. But to answer your question, the typeface itself is not complete. And you know, who knows if it ever will be?

[00:34:38] Yeah, but but but the the interesting thing about that that comment is it's not complete to you. You're the creator of it to anyone else hitting, you know, the the typeface and and thinking about the ways that they can use it and everything.

[00:34:53] You know, if you connect with it and you see what you're looking for or maybe you see something new that you didn't know you were looking for, but you know you like it, then it is complete. It's it's complete in what it is.

[00:35:05] I think your typeface looks fantastic. And I have a huge amount of respect that that you could do that. Like that's just the amount of detail and time that I imagine that takes. I don't I don't know that I'd have the patience to do what you were talking

[00:35:18] about to move those points back and forth for hours and hours. Yeah, when I'd be like, all right, good enough done. Move on. But but also to tell the truth, that project like also kind of started as like stress relief project for me

[00:35:31] because I was also still in the type design program when I started it. And like, yeah, I just wanted another project to take my mind off the, I don't know, the deadlines or the complications of the thing I was working on most of the time in this one.

[00:35:45] I wasn't making it for an assignment. I was definitely not commissioned. So there was no pressure from anybody to even complete it in the first place. So it could just be it's like at a certain point, it's like a meditation

[00:35:58] moving those points around like you kind of disappear into the Bezier curves. I could I could totally see it. Yeah, absolutely. What let's talk a little bit about bad design and not necessarily your own bad design or even calling out or maybe maybe calling out.

[00:36:18] But I guess what I'm thinking what I'm thinking of is, you know, we live in a world where that is curated and crafted by endless numbers of people. Everything that I look at in this room is created by someone. And sometimes there are great examples

[00:36:34] and that, you know, they're designed wonderfully and they do exactly what they they deliver on their promise. And then, man, sometimes there are just things out there that are horribly designed. And I I'm always asking myself like, how how did the person

[00:36:47] create this not know that this is horrible? Or maybe they thought it was just good enough, got to move on, put it out. Like, are you surprised by our acceptance of bad design in technology specifically? Like, there's a lot of bad things designed in tech.

[00:37:02] Are you surprised by that? Yeah, I mean, it's also it's also a question of like bad for who like. I think that design is like when it doesn't work for the person who's using it. But often, often that's not the priority of the person who's creating it.

[00:37:19] I also think it's an issue of like awareness. I think when you're making something, I mean, this applies to like many. Frames of thought. But I think when you're making something, there's there's always. OK, I'll scope it down a little bit narrower when you're making an interface.

[00:37:36] There's always going to be a certain balance between, you know, the the the old like, don't make me think concept of like, it should be as simple as possible. We should like get people through this narrow channel to the thing that they are doing

[00:37:50] or like that we want them to do is often the implication versus like the friction of using the experience, like the things that the person has to learn or think about or they're encountering for the first time or, you know, things like that. I think like.

[00:38:06] A lack of awareness that both of those things exist together, whether you're addressing them in the design or not leads to bad design. And for example, like going back to the MTA tech and machine, like there's an interesting friction there because people had an encounter

[00:38:23] to touch screen in the wild before. So like you're learning about this technology as you're using it, which in some sense that kind of friction can be productive because then maybe you come away with a different understanding of the technology or of yourself

[00:38:35] or even like new ideas about what you can do as a person or just like a being in the world. But in that context, that's probably not the right time to have such a high balance of friction versus ease of use because you're likely in a hurry.

[00:38:53] You are likely dealing with an unpredictable train schedule. You might hear the sound of the train that you need to catch passing by as you figure out what to do on this machine. And that elevates the stress level of, oh, I got just got to figure

[00:39:07] this damn thing out right now. Yeah. Right. But on the other hand, I do kind of want to advocate for like things that that do make you think and do provoke some kind of like growth or like some new form of knowledge.

[00:39:21] But yeah, I think I think like not being aware of the balance of those things often leads to frustrating experiences. Mm hmm. Yeah. No question. Good answer. Yes. I think I think you're absolutely right though. It's it's easy for me to say this is poorly designed.

[00:39:41] But that's really that's a you're right. It's a subjective perspective. It's my interaction. Did I have some sort of an expectation out of this that it's not fulfilling? And was it even created to satisfy that expectation at all?

[00:39:57] And I think it's it's a different story if that product is, you know, actively marketed and touted as it does this particular thing. And when it's designed poorly and it doesn't actually do that thing, that's another story. That's a promise that's unfulfilled. But yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:14] And there's also probably something very endearing about bad technology as well, you know, kind of like what you were saying earlier about early days Android design, like maybe by comparison to material design, it's not, you know, it doesn't capture the same kind of like pretty.

[00:40:33] You know, it doesn't touch on the same notes that we would say, oh, that's pretty looking or that's that's interesting or whatever. But it's still like I could still pull out my Motorola Droid, you know, brought my first Android device and look at the design

[00:40:47] and as rudimentary and early and in some cases ugly as it may be, it's still endearing to me because at the time it wasn't any of those things. It was revolutionary. I'm really interrogating this lately, like thinking about these like vintage interfaces at this point

[00:41:07] and like asking myself, is there some inherent aesthetic value to this old piece of software? Or am I just remembering being young? Like, is it just is it just like my life experience at the time that I used it or is it the thing itself?

[00:41:27] I mean, the answer is almost certainly both. But it's but it's interesting to think about like, yeah, where that balances. Yeah, yeah, no question. I know that I've only got you for just a few more minutes here.

[00:41:42] So I think probably my last question that I would love to know is in your in your experience with technology and your experience in design, is there maybe not the most cherished technology? No absolutes necessary here.

[00:42:00] But is there a piece of technology that you can think of in your life experience that is just kind of one of the more cherished pieces of technology from from a design and experience perspective? Gosh, yeah. It's a tough question because I mean, it is a tough question.

[00:42:21] In some I was I was thinking about earlier while I was thinking about like getting ready for this recording, I was thinking about technology's role in my life. And I think if I my gut instinct when I think about technology's role

[00:42:38] in my life is to think mostly about like personal computing. But then I have to like back up and consider if that if that would really be what I would pick out as the most meaningful thing

[00:42:50] to me, because certainly our lives are mediated by all kinds of technology all the time from birth until death. So there's like everything is technology in some sense. And we probably take a lot of it for granted because it's just

[00:43:04] yeah, it's kind of part of the oxygen in the air at this point. I think, God, there's so many options. But if I have to pick like the first thing that jumps out to me is probably the first digital camera that I bought.

[00:43:20] I was a photographer for a long time. I don't know if one ever stops being a photographer, but I don't do it for money anymore. But like when I was a teenager and I got my first job,

[00:43:31] I like saved up for so long to get this Nikon D50 camera. And I used the hell out of that camera. It was really meaningful to me because it was like such a quick easy, authentic, accessible way to say something about the experiences

[00:43:55] I was having in my life. And like also to communicate those experiences in the same way that I think design does to another person. Like I think when you take a picture of something, you're kind of making that moment into an object

[00:44:08] that you can then convey to other people or just to yourself at a later point in time. So I think that that stands out to me probably as like the first example of technology that I there was really important

[00:44:22] and really like changed the direction of things for me, I think. Yeah. I love that. I mean, it's obvious to draw. It's an obvious connection to draw from a very capable piece of hardware that takes excellent pictures that allows you to take compositions

[00:44:39] that you think of and turn them into reality. And then that leads into kind of your career in design, which is which I highly respect. Liam, you are your wicked, smart and good at what you do and you're a cool guy.

[00:44:53] And I love that I get the chance to talk to you right now. Thank you for telling me a little bit about your design ethos and a little bit about where that came from. If you want, I know that you do a podcast.

[00:45:04] So folks should know that you do a podcast on design actually real quick before I end. I think you're the perfect person to tell this this very quick story that I actually did tell on this on this show a couple of weeks ago.

[00:45:17] But Matias Duarte, one of one of my most embarrassing tech moments was at Google I.O. I don't know how many years ago, but it was post material design and everybody was going gaga over material and I ended up in a press

[00:45:30] room with a bunch of people and Matias was there and I found myself standing one to one with Matias and I had absolutely no idea what to say. Like it was one of those moments where I was so like

[00:45:44] awestruck that this person that was so instrumental to all these things that I followed and reported on and everything was standing right there. And yet you just had an interview with Matias like last month in May, May 14th. Yeah, sounds sounds like you work closely with Matias.

[00:46:02] I'm assuming not super closely day to day, but it's funny that you bring that up because I think I was in the same press room at I.O. that year and he had, you know, we had a conversation about some of my coverage on Android police.

[00:46:17] It was really interesting. So to go from that through this whole journey and then come back around having this great interview with him is like really full circle in kind of a stunning way for me. Life is cool like that. Something you know what I mean?

[00:46:33] It's it's like that seed was planted so many years ago and now in in a reverse context. It's like, oh, it all comes back together again. Yeah. So of course the podcast that we're talking about is design notes, pod link pod.link slash design notes.

[00:46:48] Is that the best way to get to the podcast? Yeah, because it has links to every type of app you can imagine. Excellent. There you go. Yeah. Excellent, excellent podcast for those looking for more of Liam's thoughts and the people that you talk to

[00:47:04] in the world of design. Anywhere else that people should go if they want to kind of keep up with what you're doing? Yeah, I mean, I'm on various social networks at various times, but I'm not taking any of them too seriously at the moment.

[00:47:15] Probably the best place to follow my work is interface cafe.com. I just started this site like a few weeks ago to just have an outlet to write like some casual thoughts about interface. So it's meant to be a chill place to unpack some ideas.

[00:47:30] I've got a comment section. Yeah. Excellent interface cafe.com. We're looking at it right now if you're watching the video version. Looks like you've been putting a lot on the page too. So you're adding. Yeah, I actually also I put all of the full transcripts

[00:47:47] for design notes episodes on this site as well. So they're all available there. Excellent. Right on. Well, Liam, it's been a pleasure catching up with you. I'm so happy to see you and who knows, you know when I'm when we're taking a family trip to

[00:47:59] Switzerland and not Italy, I'll make sure and knock in your door and say hi. Yeah, let me know. It's really nice to see you too. All right, huge thanks to my guest, Liam Sprague. It was great catching up and getting nerdy about design.

[00:48:13] All right, everybody, we're doing this show because you're helping us do this show. That's right. Many of you are supporting the text bloater podcast at patreon.com slash Jason Howell and I got to kind of grow this thing. So if you want to help me out, sure would

[00:48:28] appreciate it and I'll go ahead and throw you some extras in the process at free shows early access to videos. We've got a hop and discord community. We also have some exclusive patrons only pre-premier live stream events actually every single week before the episode premieres on YouTube.

[00:48:45] I open up the stream for 30 minutes for only patrons and you can be a part of that by being a patron of this show. This week's executive producers, if you're at a certain tier, you can do that. Jeffrey Maricini, John Cuny, Katie Lake, Bill Rudder, y'all are awesome.

[00:49:01] Thank you for helping me do this show. Text bloater podcast premieres every Friday at 10 a.m. Pacific 1 p.m. Eastern on the text bloater YouTube channel. The audio podcast publishes to the feeds just a little bit after that time. So look for it.

[00:49:15] Do not forget, please, please like rate review, subscribe wherever you happen to be. It really helps us out and really you can find everything you need to know about this show at text bloater.com. Thank you again to our guest, Liam Spraglin. Thank you for watching and listening.

[00:49:31] I'm Jason Howell and I'll see you next time on another episode of the text bloater podcast.